Bud Williams Schools, Teaching Low Stress Livestock Handling Methods and Livestock Marketing Strategies.

Bud & Eunice Williams Talking about Dogs

Stockdog Questions and Answers

Comment from Australia—

After logging onto your site the other night I spent a bit of time reading the pages on dogs; it was terrific. Tonight I let Reg work as you suggested, and that little dog that seemed not to be any good worked like a true champ. By the time we finished she had a grin from ear to ear. Thank you for taking the blinkers off and stopping me from confusing the hound; we both appreciate it very much!

Question—

Had a quick question about a cow dog of mine. He is a little over a year old and likes to chase, but he likes to herd too particularly when we are trailing the cows. When a cow gets out of the herd and you tell him to get her back in, he will always go straight at the cow instead of going around her to get her in and usually will push her further out of the herd. I recently read your article about dogs wanting to bring everything to you but he hasn't ever brought any thing to me. He will always chase a cow instead of herding her. I tried to let him go once and just see what he would do without me calling him off and he just kept pushing her further and further away. So, just wanted to hear you thoughts on this situation.

Answer—

It's pretty hard to give advice on a particular dog with no more to go on than that, but here are a few things you might consider. I'm not clear from your letter if you have a "herding dog" since you said he has never brought anything to you.

A "herding" dog's instincts are telling him to go to the lead of moving stock. This is what they LOVE to do. This is what they get the most satisfaction out of doing. With a little input from you, you can teach the dog to stay on the other side of the stock and bring them to you. But remember, his greatest joy is going to stop the herd and turn it back. If you won't allow him to do this occasionally, he can get very frustrated and is liable to do most anything.

There is nothing wrong with keeping a dog with you if you want to drive the stock yourself, but you should never encourage or allow a young "herding" dog to drive stock in front of you. Another place where people can mess up a young dog is to send them too soon to pick up animals that are along side of the herd. You should always wait until the herd has passed that animal before you let the dog go. In this way, he is bringing the animal to you and the herd, and it is very natural for him to pull off when he gets to you. Most people send the dog too soon. Sending a dog from this position is actually telling the dog to go to the lead and stop the herd, but instead, you make him stop (when he is in position to put the animal to the herd) just when his instincts are telling him to go on to the lead. If you think about it you can see where this could "short-circuit" a pup's herding instincts.

I think you misunderstood what Bud meant when he tells people to "keep quiet." He doesn't mean to let the dog do whatever it wants. When a person is giving a lot of commands, a pup can get pretty confused. When you stop yelling, but instead you move around the herd until things start working, the pup can actually start to think and to learn.

About all I can suggest is that you re-read the material on our website about starting a young dog. Keep in mind that the biggest reward you can give a young herding dog is to let him go to the lead and bring the stock back to you. When the stock goes past and the dog comes even with you, you can send him to the lead again. This only takes a few minutes, and you are right back to going where you were. This is good for the stock and good for your dog. Even an old, well trained dog appreciates this now and then.

Answer to a letter from Brazil—

Yes, you have our permission to reprint any of the articles we have on our website.

Sorry, I don't know of any scientific material that has documented the stress on livestock that are being worked with a dog. Our personal experience has been that at GOOD dog calms livestock down and makes them more gentle. A BAD dog does just the opposite. The problem is, that the difference between a good dog and a bad dog is in the eye of the beholder.

I would have to disagree with your statement that "a good dog should be able to both trial and be a good ranch dog." Perhaps I should qualify that. An "excellent" ranch dog will never be an excellent trial dog. He may be an OK trial dog, but he will never be willing to obey unconditionally if he knows that the handler is "wrong." Since you are working under a time limit, you often ask your dog to do things that you hope will get the job done, but if you are wrong, there is always another trial. You would never do this in a ranch situation because your goal is not only to get the job done, but to teach your stock good things so they will be easier to handle the next time. An "excellent or good" trial dog will maybe be an OK ranch dog if he was started properly and actually learned how to handle livestock on his own before he was taught to work under tight control. The reason I say that is, looking back at some of our very best dogs I know that they did not take kindly to us putting in our "two-cents worth" when they were working. These dogs have their mind totally on the stock. Other than indicating the animals you want and where you want them to go, the person giving commands is a distraction that an "excellent" ranch dog resents. Buck, one of the best dogs we have ever had for gathering wild sheep in the mountains, would back off and come back to you if you insisted that he "bring 'm up" rather than push the sheep when he knew that they weren't ready to be pressured and would likely split up. I'm sure we could have forced him to do this, since in a trial with a time limit and you must occasionally "take a chance," but this would have certainly taken away from his ability to use his own best judgment (which is better than ours) as to how to work wild sheep in rough country.

Mitzy, one of our very best cow-dogs, was another who knew how to work cattle better that any person you will ever be around. Bud and I regularly drove up to 500 head of cattle through the mountains. We always had other dogs with us, but you could be sure that Mitzy would always show up where she was needed. Often she would be there before we could see a problem. We learned the hard way that she had a reason for being there, and you'd better leave her alone. We used to have a lot of college kids come and visit. They loved to work the dogs, so we would let them take Mitzy out in the pasture. If what they were telling her was correct, she worked great for them. If they told her to do something wrong, she would just set down and look back at them until they got their act together and told her to do the right thing.

We have had some "good" ranch dogs that would have probably made "OK" trial dogs. They were willing to do what we told them to do even though they knew we were wrong. An "excellent" trial dog must be absolutely willing to turn his mind over to the handler without even a "second-guess thought" in his mind, and they must love doing it. Many of the dogs we have had in the past were given to us because they couldn't take the "trial-type" training and handling. We found that many of these dogs were the ones with a lot of instinct and intelligence and made excellent ranch dogs if they were allowed to work with a minimum of commands. By the way, when I am talking about a ranch dog, I'm not talking about working pastures where the stock and the dog are nearly always in sight.

Bud has been reading this over my shoulder and said "I know that I could have never been a trial dog." His Naval career will attest to that. He spent a lot of time in the brig.

Question—

December 2006 Oklahoma—I've been reading your site and come up with a question or two. I trial my dogs as well as use them in the pasture, trialing them is not a problem at all but when I get in the pasture and have to count on them they just won't stick to it. I try to encourage them all I can (praise, hoot and holler, yip, etc.), but they just won't do their jobs. Can you give me any advice? I work them a lot in a trial course, and they do great on 3 to 5 head in a lot or in a pasture course if that makes any sense, but it's working the herds of cows that my problem really shows with 2 or 3 dogs on 30 to 50 head of half broke cows. My dogs have a huge presence and all of them have a great mouth. They go to the head or heels, but when I send them to the cows they go then say ,"see ya," and turn around and come back. if you have any advice please e-mail me.

Answer—

Some dogs will work well at trialing and in the pasture, most will not.

If it is important to you to have a good pasture dog, one that will work out of your sight, one that can control the animals without you controlling the dog, that dog must be allowed to learn how to get the job done alone - not be told how to get it done.

I like to start a young dog out in the pasture, not in a small pen. Let the dog learn to work. Not run wild, but let it work. If we use too much control, some dogs just quit. Even if you want to trial, the dog should learn the pasture first. After a dog learns to work and get a job done right, it is easy to put commands on it for a trial.

Too much control will hurt a pasture dog. With the dogs that you have, send them then shut-up. Just move around and let them see that they can work without commands. Move around, even if you have to be in the center of the herd. Any place until the dogs realize you will let them do something. The less you say, the better. Saying nothing is best.

Remarks June, 2007 —

. . . . I e-mailed you a while back and I had a question about getting my trial dogs to work in the pasture. Well I really appreciate the advice. My dogs are working great in the pasture. I send ‘em and shut up and hey it works. At first it was a little unnerving they were a little uneasy but they have come a long way. I think the hardest thing was to shut my mouth but I have no arguments IT WORKED. I recently took them and lotted 380 head without a hitch. I send ‘em and sit in the truck and shut up and here they come pushing ‘em right along no problem. I can't put in words how great it has gotten mainly cause my jaw is still stuck to the ground. I've also realized that the trialing has gotten better. You really made me sit and think when you said shut up and I've come to a conclusion that I'm over handling my dogs. The problem wasn't my dogs it was me and I realize that now. THANK YOU.

Question, 2005 Utah—

Can you tell me about dog breaking cattle? I'm a little curious about your approach, how you start, what you're looking for, etc. I've been working with some cows that I was told are "dog broke," and they seem to know what to do around a dog, but they will occasionally really go out of their way to get after the dog.

Answer—

As far as "dog breaking cows," we suggest that you first introduce the cows to a dog when the cows are dry. If you are knowledgeable and have good dogs you can work cows and calves that have not been worked with a dog before, but most people feel that a dog causes more trouble than they solve in a case like this.

What you want to accomplish is to teach the cows that they must respect the dog but not be afraid of it. You want a dog to use as much force as is necessary to turn the cow back, but then he should be willing to let her go back to the bunch without harassing her. Don't call the dog off or lay it down to accomplish this, just "push" the dog over to work something else (read the Stockdogs information on this web site). Don't make your dog back-off or lie down when a cow wants to fight it. This teaches the cow that she doesn't have to respect the dog. Some people want a dog to "punish" the cows. In this situation, the cow feels that the dog is a threat to her, so naturally, she feels the dog is a threat to her calf and is often the very worst kind of "dog-fighter." You certainly can't fault her for this.

Remember that all of the animals you work with are learning and changing all of the time—just let a novice ride your good cow-horse for a month or so and see what happens. Just because a group of cows are "dog-broke" doesn't mean they will do exactly what any dog wants them to do. They know if the dog has the power so they will respect it. I think a better word than power is "presence." Our better cow-dogs seldom had to bite, but the cattle still respected them.

Here is an example of a dog with "presence." When we were in Canada, we always had a straw bed for the cattle. Picture 600-800 yearlings cuddled up in the straw, temperatures at minus 30 or so. It was a tough job for a couple of people to get them up and going early in the morning. You had to almost personally get each animal up. Normally it took at least two dogs to get them moving, and they really had to work at it. Tuffy, the Kelpie that we brought back with us from Australia, could easily get them up and moving by himself with no trouble at all. When the cattle saw him coming, they would start standing up. Cattle know if a dog is weak, and they take great joy in chasing it. They also know that some dogs are not to be trusted so they are afraid to turn their back on it to go back to the bunch or to leave their calf unprotected.

Question from Australia —

I've been starting pups for so long using a lot of control that I'm having trouble starting pups using your methods. The main problem I have is not teaching them to come to me first. I am currently starting 2 pups, a lively Kelpie who is 10 months old and a quiet Kelpie cross Border Collie who is 8 months old. They are both working the sheep well and learning to hold them on me OK but I have trouble calling them off especially the Kelpie pup. I've tried waiting until he "asks" to come in but he hasn't asked yet and we've had some pretty long afternoons. It has often resulted in me tackling him when he's unsuspecting but I don't think that's the right thing to do either. He's a great pup, going to suit this country well as he is so tough and won't give up or tire. Would it do any harm to let him work with a rope dragging so I can bring him in with less fuss?

Answer—

Please don't misunderstand what I say. I want my dogs to mind and they are taught to come. It is just that the first time they go with me to work - I want nothing to keep them from working with THEIR style, not a way I have forced on them with my control. If you have a strong-willed pup it doesn't hurt to let him work dragging a rope, or to teach him to come before you take him to stock. A more timid pup should work a time or two before you put too much control on him.

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Bud & Eunice Williams
PO Box 1497
Bowie, TX 76230-1497
940/872-4800 ~ Phone
Eunice@stockmanship.com